As mentioned above, I think astrology is just another (major case) of human thought processes being projected as part of the underlying framework of any attempted imaging scheme involving circles and totalities (the Absolute). GWF Hegel has apparently either been influenced by the ‘astrological’-ness of reality , or he , like Ezekiel, would rather not call upon it by name. We can use the Babylonian contribution to the art to show how Hegel gets his ideas about dialectical relations , and even how Jacques Lacan uses this ” like a language” structure of unconscious to make Hegel’s dialectics into the tools of his Freudian-styled school of psychoanalysis. Here are a couple of images I made to show what is going on with these symbols at the idea level perceptions:

http://pedantus.free.fr/SilentAstrologicalTemplate.gif

http://pedantus.free.fr/HegelsDialectics_01a.gif

To understand the “noise(s)” referred to you have to understand a bit more about astrology as a human psychical phenomenon. That’s where everyone wants to jump ship…: ) But, suffice it to say, that the unsettling nature of sounds is related to what modern astrology calls the planet Uranus. Thunder is the Promethean flash of insight in the form of an auditory perception ..the calamity which signals change and a need for adaption. Humming and droning sound is the hallmark of continued industry…the activity sounds, the makings and doings of something in production. It matters not what abstract object or level of abstraction is appealed to for an expression of an ‘artists’ intentions. Uranus is noise, chaos, and invention…”stealing fire from God(s).”

From what I read here, I think the desire to take everything way to literally when attempting to understand an artistic expression really does defeat the writers purposes….Ezekiel is here a dramatist trying to say that he gets his message directly from God, this even if some of his audience were inclined to think ‘astrologically’ because having long been in captivity the young may have learned an adopted the philosophical view of local astral religion(s)…already ancient and considered the best source of (what we moderns may think of as the Hegelian Absolute ) truth being mediated by man in accordance with the development of a given consciousness.

Rog

The prophet Ezekiel was a priest who received prophetic messages from God. He lived among other citizens of the nation of Judah during the years of Babylonian captivity, in the year 597 B.C.

In the very first chapter of his book, he describes an amazing vision of God, which came to him at the beginning of his ministry.

Ezekiel 1:1-21 “Now it was, in the thirtieth year, in the fourth (month), in the fifth (day) of the month, as I (Ezekiel) (was) among the captives by the river Chebar (which was the main canal of the Euphrates, south of Babylon, (there, by the river) were opened (to view) the heavens (the higher expanse of the abode of God, as seen from the eyes of a mortal man who dwells upon the earth) and I saw visions (revelations) of God.”

“On the fifth of the month, it (was) the fifth of the month, it (was) the year the fifth of the captivity of the King Jehotachin, the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel, the son of Buzi, the priest in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar. And was upon him there the hand of Jehovah (overpowering his limited human perception, enabling him, thusly to see the vision of God).”

Matthew Henry.- That he might see the visions of God the heavens were opened; the darkness and distance which hindered his visions were conquered. He felt the power of God opening his eyes to see the visions, opening his ear to hear the voice, and opening his heart to receive both.

(Continuing Ezekiel 1:1-21) “And I (Ezekiel) looked, and behold a wind of storm came out of the north, a great could (a visible, buoyant, moving body mass, consider – an airship suspended in the sky), and a fire flashing itself (resulting from the explosive effects of weapon’s fired at high velocity), and a brightness to it (from the explosive outburst) all around, and out of its midst (i.e. from the metal tubes of the weapons it was) like the color of polished bronze out of the middle of the fire (from the explosion).”
“Also (in addition to all this) from its midst (the center of all this action) (came) the likeness of four living creatures (living beings).”

High up, in the heavens, God “mounted the cherubim and flew”; He soared on the “wings of the wind” through His providence unrestrained by time or matter to reveal this vision to the prophet Ezekiel.

(Continuing Ezekiel 1:1-21) “And this (description I Ezekiel give to you) (was) how they (the living creatures the men) looked (to me back in the year 597 B.C.); the likeness of a man (was) to them; and to each four faces (as there were four distinctly different men that I saw- but to me, never having seen such marvelous creations, the living creatures seemed to be part man) and (part mechanical bird with) four wings to each of them (not comprehending at the time that they were men in airplanes- consequently, the following narrative); and their feet (i.e., the main landing gear of the planes) (were) feet of straightness (they were extended rigidly and did not bend); and the sole of their feet (upon which the main landing gear seemed to rest- the mudguards actually) (was) (to my recollection) like the sole of the foot of a calf; and they sparkled like the color of burnished copper.”

“And from under their wings on (all) four of their sides (i.e., on each side of the two biplanes were seen) the hands of a man (they were the hands of those seated in the open fuselage); and there (were) (four) (on the biplanes), joining each on (that is on the left and right) (of) their wings to the other. (The aircraft moved, this way and that but) they (the men) did not turn in their going; each one (of the men) toward the front (the direction) of their (pilots) face they went.”

“And the likeness of their faces (looked like) the face of a man, and (in addition, the man) on the right (side) (fig., the man on the right is in a position of strength and power) to the four of them (on basis – they being the only passenger with sole use of a weapon; this one man), had the face of a lion (accounting to the thick growth of his beard); and (in addition to these two men in the biplane) on the left (the weaker) (side) to the four of them (defensively speaking the two pilots in the fighter planes, without weapons were in a position of what would seemingly be an disadvantage; one of the two, the first one I saw had) the face of an ox (in comparative likeness to that sort of an animal); and (lastly) to the four of them (the remaining one had) the face of an eagle (owing to the goggles he wore) , so their faces (were).”

“And their (that is, the) wings (of the biplane) were spread (the lower wings were separated longitudinally) upward (from the lower by the use of wing struts); to each (the left and right sides of) the two (wings) were joined (of) each one (that is, though the wings of the biplane had a right and left side- the construction was of one piece), and (the) two (wings) (that is, the left and right side of the top wings) covered their bodies (from above-were, also constructed of one piece). And each toward the front (in the direction) of their (pilots) faces (they) went (they did not fly backwards but in a forward direction). To where there was the (willful desire of the) spirit to go: they went; they did not turn (as one would bend a horse’s neck to change direction) in their going.”

“And the likeness of the living creatures (firing the weapons), like coals of burning fire (were the projectiles expelled from the firearms), (and) the appearance of torches (were the weapons using an explosive as a propellant). It (the volley of the simultaneous discharge) (was) continually circling among the living creatures. And bright (was the fire of the volley) and out of the fire (the explosive discharge) went forth (a flash, like) lightening (when the weapons were discharged). And the living creatures kept running (rapidly) and (swiftly in the sky) returning (in their continuing attacks), like the appearance of (the great speed of) a flash of lightening.”

“And I looked at the living creatures (in the vision), and behold one wheel (of a motor vehicle) (was) on the earth (this man in the vision was) beside (in addition to the vision of) the living creatures, with the four of its faces (I previously described).”

“The appearance of the wheels (of the motor vehicle) and their workmanship (the rim and hubcap were) like the color of beryl (which is a silver white metal- similar to aluminum) and the likeness one (was) to the four of them (the wheels were all alike). And their (the vehicles hubcaps, were round in) appearance and their workmanship was like the wheel in the middle (in the center) of the (rims of the) wheel.”

“On the four (corners) of their sides (housed within the wheel well were situated) in their going (forth) they (all the wheels) went; they (the fender areas of the vehicle itself) did not turn (in different directions, but remained stationary) in their going. And their rim, even high (in magnificence and splendor) to them (in my eyes) even awesome (in my sight were the tires) to them (extraordinary and exceptionally outstanding); and their (the tires) rims (with their highly polished chrome hubcaps) (were) full of eyes (like a mirror reflection) all around the four of them.”

1. What about the noises of thunder that the wings make

** thunder is noisy. It is never silent.

2. What about the fire that the clothed man took in between the cherubins to scatter among the city?

** this is stock imagery of theophany elsewhere in the OT (cf. the burning bush). Why? Because divine beings are often described as luminous – fire gives off light. There is also the ancient association with the sun, conceived as made of fire not because of primitive science, but because it gave off heat. The sun and other things like stars and planets moved in the sky, and so were considered to be alive / animate. In short, this is the normal way to describe a deity. It doesn’t compel the notion of space travel.

3. If cherubs actually mean ox, so are you saying that throughout the entire Bible (Kings, Chronicles, Psalms) it was actually referring to oxes with wings up to 30 feet that could fly??????

** no – meaning is always determined by CONTEXT. This imagery in Ezekiel is contextualized by the iconography associated with (divine or human) kingship. The cardinal points of the zodiac add to the divine / celestial context.

4. According to the zodiac, I have never seen a version where lions, humans, and bulls having wings. I think that really stretching out the truth to fit in your argument.

** then you need to do some reading on the ancient zodiac – and the point of the wings is that the animals are in the SKY (wings=flight), and so the zodiac association is quite appropriate (the constellations are in the SKY).

5. How would you explain the following?

** ONE of the cherubim (v. 7 that you quote) was fashioned as a man – and men have hands.

** I’ve posted examples of cherubim as bulls. A cherubim was simply a throne guardian (the Akkadian word karub, which is cognate to Hebrew cherub/charub = throne guardian). THere were other names for throne guardians (Egyptian, seraf = a serpent; Assyrian lamassu – Google lamassu and look at the pictures – the creatures have hooves). There are a number of good books on ancient near eastern and biblical iconography; some in English. Look up works by Othmar / O. Keel on Amazon for a sampling.

1. What about the noises of thunder that the wings make
2. What about the fire that the clothed man took in between the cherubins to scatter among the city?
3. If cherubs actually mean ox, so are you saying that throughout the entire Bible (Kings, Chronicles, Psalms) it was actually referring to oxes with wings up to 30 feet that could fly??????
4. According to the zodiac, I have never seen a version where lions, humans, and bulls having wings. I think that really stretching out the truth to fit in your argument.
5. How would you explain the following?

Ezekiel 10:7
Then one of the cherubim reached out his hand to the fire that was among them. He took up some of it and put it into the hands of the man in linen, who took it and went out.

Ezekiel 10:8
Under the wings of the cherubim could be seen what looked likethe hands of a man.

I don’t think oxes/bulls have hands. But where can I find find icongraphy of cherubs being bulls?

6. I can see how the sphinx may resemble a cherub based on your zodiac model but
as far as the sphinx goes the Egyptians never hand wings on their sphinx, at least there is no proof of it. They may became fused with rams and there are statues today but none with wings. The sphinx itself originated in Egypt. Greek version of the sphinx with wings came much later, about 600 BC around the Bronze Age. In the Bible, Cherubs are never described anything else except having wings up to 30 feet and can fly, with hands like a man, and 4 faces.
You would really really really have to stretch the truth once again to fit it in your ideology.

I could be wrong on some of these, but so far I haven’t found any evidence to support your zodiac theory. If you could provide me some evidence from credible sources or scriptures, that would help! Thanks