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	<title>Comments on: The Almah of Isaiah 7:14</title>
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	<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/</link>
	<description>Biblical theology, stripped bare of denominational confessions and theological systems</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:00:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-3538</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-3538</guid>
		<description>okay; can you list them clearly to save time? I actually don&#039;t see questions that are coherent in this post (or others). I see ranting. And when it comes to &quot;no proof for Jesus&quot; I see ignorance. Maybe you&#039;re just spouting Zeitgeist nonsense - perhaps it hasn&#039;t struck you that even people with zero commitments to Jesus belief or anything else theistic haven&#039;t come out of the woodwork to support Zeitgeist - but even atheist scholars came out of the woodwork to condemn the Jesus tomb nonsense? Why?  Because Zeitgeist&#039;s arguments have no merit, and even opponents of Christianity familiar with the material know that, so they have not supported Zeitgeist.  And on the other side, even opponents of Jesus could see that the Jesus Tomb thing was based on ridiculous leaps of logic -- so they knew if they supported it&#039;s non sequiturs, they&#039;d look silly. You can get loud, but you can&#039;t deny this is what happened in both cases.  And that means you don&#039;t appear serious.  But, if you can tell us you aren&#039;t supporting Zeitgeist and can list specific questions for analysis and discussion, I&#039;ll be happy to post them with responses.  I&#039;m not wasting my time on silly rants, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>okay; can you list them clearly to save time? I actually don&#8217;t see questions that are coherent in this post (or others). I see ranting. And when it comes to &#8220;no proof for Jesus&#8221; I see ignorance. Maybe you&#8217;re just spouting Zeitgeist nonsense &#8211; perhaps it hasn&#8217;t struck you that even people with zero commitments to Jesus belief or anything else theistic haven&#8217;t come out of the woodwork to support Zeitgeist &#8211; but even atheist scholars came out of the woodwork to condemn the Jesus tomb nonsense? Why?  Because Zeitgeist&#8217;s arguments have no merit, and even opponents of Christianity familiar with the material know that, so they have not supported Zeitgeist.  And on the other side, even opponents of Jesus could see that the Jesus Tomb thing was based on ridiculous leaps of logic &#8212; so they knew if they supported it&#8217;s non sequiturs, they&#8217;d look silly. You can get loud, but you can&#8217;t deny this is what happened in both cases.  And that means you don&#8217;t appear serious.  But, if you can tell us you aren&#8217;t supporting Zeitgeist and can list specific questions for analysis and discussion, I&#8217;ll be happy to post them with responses.  I&#8217;m not wasting my time on silly rants, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-3524</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 00:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-3524</guid>
		<description>You really are not following my questions.  Until these are answered what is the point in discussing what hebrew word denotes a virgin or young maiden. That one verse is NOT a prophecy of anyone named jesus and anyone with any grey matter between their ears should be able to read that entire tale and grasp what is being said. Why do you people always avoid what you prefer NOT to answer?  That example is only one of many other such situations claimed to be prophecies but are not. The god of the OT is a manmade concocted mental case who reflected his creators to a &#039;T&#039;.  There has never been one shred of physical or written proof for your jesus either. It was all created to deceive and control the sheeple by the hands of some very crafty liars and cons.  These certain people never change but hopefully the world is becoming aware of these parasites and their demonic god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really are not following my questions.  Until these are answered what is the point in discussing what hebrew word denotes a virgin or young maiden. That one verse is NOT a prophecy of anyone named jesus and anyone with any grey matter between their ears should be able to read that entire tale and grasp what is being said. Why do you people always avoid what you prefer NOT to answer?  That example is only one of many other such situations claimed to be prophecies but are not. The god of the OT is a manmade concocted mental case who reflected his creators to a &#8216;T&#8217;.  There has never been one shred of physical or written proof for your jesus either. It was all created to deceive and control the sheeple by the hands of some very crafty liars and cons.  These certain people never change but hopefully the world is becoming aware of these parasites and their demonic god.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-3481</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 03:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-3481</guid>
		<description>you really aren&#039;t following the discussion well. I think you need to go back and read what&#039;s being said and not said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you really aren&#8217;t following the discussion well. I think you need to go back and read what&#8217;s being said and not said.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-3470</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 02:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-3470</guid>
		<description>Read the rest of the chapters in Isaiah 7&amp;8 to get the FULL story. It goes on to say that Isaiah takes a witness and goes in to the Prophetess and gets her pregnant and that their children will be for &#039;signs&#039;. This is in NO way a prophecy of Jesus. 

Prophecies are only real when the thing prophesied comes to pass in the life of the hearers and how could a child to be born 700 years later be a sign to Ahaz?!  How can one prove a true prophet is you have to wait for hundreds of years to see if he is honest? This is clearly speaking of the child Isaiah and this Prophetess spawned. Isaiah tells Ahaz this is the sign yahweh will give him!!!!  Think people and read for yourselves. Ahaz has two powerful armies coming after him and he needs help NOW not 700 years down the road when he is dead and rotted in his grave. What would you think if you were in dire straits, a matter of life or death and some religious lunatic told you that god was going to send you a sign and he would accomplish that sign a hundred years from now? What the hell kind of help would that be?  You are still being lied to people and it is being done for a reason.  Stop being sheeple.

Also, you can&#039;t find a more vicious and bloodthirsty creature in the entire bible than yahweh. Any diety that condones the rape of little girls and forcing his own &#039;chosen&#039; to eat their own children is not a god but a demon. History, even religious history, is written by the winners and the hebrews butchered and lied their way to that status. Nothing has changed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read the rest of the chapters in Isaiah 7&amp;8 to get the FULL story. It goes on to say that Isaiah takes a witness and goes in to the Prophetess and gets her pregnant and that their children will be for &#8216;signs&#8217;. This is in NO way a prophecy of Jesus. </p>
<p>Prophecies are only real when the thing prophesied comes to pass in the life of the hearers and how could a child to be born 700 years later be a sign to Ahaz?!  How can one prove a true prophet is you have to wait for hundreds of years to see if he is honest? This is clearly speaking of the child Isaiah and this Prophetess spawned. Isaiah tells Ahaz this is the sign yahweh will give him!!!!  Think people and read for yourselves. Ahaz has two powerful armies coming after him and he needs help NOW not 700 years down the road when he is dead and rotted in his grave. What would you think if you were in dire straits, a matter of life or death and some religious lunatic told you that god was going to send you a sign and he would accomplish that sign a hundred years from now? What the hell kind of help would that be?  You are still being lied to people and it is being done for a reason.  Stop being sheeple.</p>
<p>Also, you can&#8217;t find a more vicious and bloodthirsty creature in the entire bible than yahweh. Any diety that condones the rape of little girls and forcing his own &#8216;chosen&#8217; to eat their own children is not a god but a demon. History, even religious history, is written by the winners and the hebrews butchered and lied their way to that status. Nothing has changed.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2275</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 04:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2275</guid>
		<description>You really aren&#039;t getting this, so this will be my last response to this.  (A) I never said alamot always means virgin; (B) I never said parthenos had to always mean virgin.  What I said is quite defensible from the text and the culture. It is wrong to say almah cannot mean virgin, and the vast majority of alamot were practical virgins due to the culture. I can&#039;t make it any clearer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really aren&#8217;t getting this, so this will be my last response to this.  (A) I never said alamot always means virgin; (B) I never said parthenos had to always mean virgin.  What I said is quite defensible from the text and the culture. It is wrong to say almah cannot mean virgin, and the vast majority of alamot were practical virgins due to the culture. I can&#8217;t make it any clearer.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2263</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 May 2010 07:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2263</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I&#039;m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your intentions are not apologetic (your blog, after all, professes to be stripped of theological systems). I&#039;m guessing, therefore, that by &quot;canon&quot; you simply mean the stock of all texts written in Classical Hebrew, and are not actually restricting yourself to those that are theologically significant.

Whether or not this is an issue that gets trotted out every Christmas time or not is something that I don&#039;t know (I live in Australia, and I don&#039;t watch TV), but I&#039;m prepared to take your word for that. I don&#039;t really care: from what I&#039;m given to understand, sensationalist biblical scholarship on television is pretty stupid anyway.

If &lt;i&gt;alamot&lt;/i&gt; were always virgins then I agree with you completely: usage of the term would, by necessity, have to connote virginity as an attribute. I am not convinced, however, that &lt;i&gt;alamot&lt;/i&gt; always were virgins and I fail to see how you&#039;ve proved that here. You claim that ancient Israelite society was &quot;a patriarchal culture, where women were isolated and their virginity guarded to the extreme&quot;. On what basis are you claiming this? From scriptural quotes? They prove nothing, save what their authors envisaged or claimed. Given that there are no references to &lt;i&gt;alamot&lt;/i&gt; that have to, in context, refer specifically and solely to virgins, I cannot agree with your conclusion, and am still unsure as to why you feel it needs to be drawn.

I repeat myself now: &lt;i&gt;parthenos&lt;/i&gt; has a semantic range that embraces both &quot;young girl&quot; and &quot;virgin&quot; - like the English &quot;maiden&quot;, if we want a parallel. I don&#039;t know why it&#039;s necessary to insist on &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt; possessing the same semantic range but, if you want to do so, you&#039;ll need a linguistic argument to convince me and not a social one. Or, failing that, some actual sociological evidence to back up your claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your intentions are not apologetic (your blog, after all, professes to be stripped of theological systems). I&#8217;m guessing, therefore, that by &#8220;canon&#8221; you simply mean the stock of all texts written in Classical Hebrew, and are not actually restricting yourself to those that are theologically significant.</p>
<p>Whether or not this is an issue that gets trotted out every Christmas time or not is something that I don&#8217;t know (I live in Australia, and I don&#8217;t watch TV), but I&#8217;m prepared to take your word for that. I don&#8217;t really care: from what I&#8217;m given to understand, sensationalist biblical scholarship on television is pretty stupid anyway.</p>
<p>If <i>alamot</i> were always virgins then I agree with you completely: usage of the term would, by necessity, have to connote virginity as an attribute. I am not convinced, however, that <i>alamot</i> always were virgins and I fail to see how you&#8217;ve proved that here. You claim that ancient Israelite society was &#8220;a patriarchal culture, where women were isolated and their virginity guarded to the extreme&#8221;. On what basis are you claiming this? From scriptural quotes? They prove nothing, save what their authors envisaged or claimed. Given that there are no references to <i>alamot</i> that have to, in context, refer specifically and solely to virgins, I cannot agree with your conclusion, and am still unsure as to why you feel it needs to be drawn.</p>
<p>I repeat myself now: <i>parthenos</i> has a semantic range that embraces both &#8220;young girl&#8221; and &#8220;virgin&#8221; &#8211; like the English &#8220;maiden&#8221;, if we want a parallel. I don&#8217;t know why it&#8217;s necessary to insist on <i>almah</i> possessing the same semantic range but, if you want to do so, you&#8217;ll need a linguistic argument to convince me and not a social one. Or, failing that, some actual sociological evidence to back up your claim.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2252</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 18:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2252</guid>
		<description>the point isn&#039;t that the word occurs in Esther. There is a thing called the CANON. The words used in that canon ARE interchanged elsewhere (like Genesis). You are missing the point. What *you* need to do is convince me that in a patriarchal culture, where women were isolated and their virginity guarded to the extreme, and where an almah was any woman over 12, that an almah didn&#039;t de facto speak of virginity. The *opposite* would be the (very infrequent) exception. So demonstrate that for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the point isn&#8217;t that the word occurs in Esther. There is a thing called the CANON. The words used in that canon ARE interchanged elsewhere (like Genesis). You are missing the point. What *you* need to do is convince me that in a patriarchal culture, where women were isolated and their virginity guarded to the extreme, and where an almah was any woman over 12, that an almah didn&#8217;t de facto speak of virginity. The *opposite* would be the (very infrequent) exception. So demonstrate that for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2242</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 May 2010 05:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2242</guid>
		<description>Yes, Esther is a virgin, but no, the words are not interchanged. In fact, the word &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt; doesn&#039;t occur in the book of Esther at all. That &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt; can refer to somebody who is also a virgin is inconsequential; it can also refer to somebody who happens to be a cherry-picker, but to say that the word &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt; might therefore also mean &quot;cherry-picker&quot; is ridiculous.

If you want to convince me that &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt;, in addition to denoting somebody who may happen to be a virgin, actually &lt;i&gt;means&lt;/i&gt; virgin, then you&#039;re going to need to do better than show me Songs 6:8, which &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; be referring to people who also happen to be virgins, but only through subjecting it to an exegetical reading. In the meantime, the Greek &lt;i&gt;parthenos&lt;/i&gt; has a long history of being used both as &quot;young girl&quot; and as &quot;virgin&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Esther is a virgin, but no, the words are not interchanged. In fact, the word <i>almah</i> doesn&#8217;t occur in the book of Esther at all. That <i>almah</i> can refer to somebody who is also a virgin is inconsequential; it can also refer to somebody who happens to be a cherry-picker, but to say that the word <i>almah</i> might therefore also mean &#8220;cherry-picker&#8221; is ridiculous.</p>
<p>If you want to convince me that <i>almah</i>, in addition to denoting somebody who may happen to be a virgin, actually <i>means</i> virgin, then you&#8217;re going to need to do better than show me Songs 6:8, which <i>may</i> be referring to people who also happen to be virgins, but only through subjecting it to an exegetical reading. In the meantime, the Greek <i>parthenos</i> has a long history of being used both as &#8220;young girl&#8221; and as &#8220;virgin&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2219</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 07:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2219</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s pretty clear Esther is a virgin at the beginning of the process. The real point is that the terms are interchanged.  Most almah&#039;s were default virgins in the culture anyway, due to the young age.  It&#039;s absolutely wrong to say the word cannot mean virgin; that was the focus of the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s pretty clear Esther is a virgin at the beginning of the process. The real point is that the terms are interchanged.  Most almah&#8217;s were default virgins in the culture anyway, due to the young age.  It&#8217;s absolutely wrong to say the word cannot mean virgin; that was the focus of the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Holloway</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2009/12/the-almah-of-isaiah-714/#comment-2192</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Holloway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 May 2010 16:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/?p=500#comment-2192</guid>
		<description>My apologies: my fonts did not display. Please excuse my double post, but here it is again with the words in English:

With the greatest respect, I believe that you are mistaken. Esther 2:3 refers to virgins, but the fact that it also mentions the word &lt;i&gt;betulah&lt;/i&gt; might indicate that &lt;i&gt;na&#039;arah&lt;/i&gt; by itself is insufficient to denote them. Even if &lt;i&gt;na&#039;arah&lt;/i&gt; did have that meaning, it still says nothing for &lt;i&gt;almah&lt;/i&gt; which might be supposed to denote virgins in Songs 6:8, but might just as easily be denoting the second group of women described in Esther 2:14.

On the contrary, I think that the ambiguity resides in the Greek, &lt;i&gt;parthenos&lt;/i&gt;. Like the English “maiden”, it has a semantic range that extends both to “virgin” and “young girl”. To suggest that Matthew might have erred seems a bit glib to me; there are enough stories of virgin births in the ancient world to dismiss the possibility that they derive from a faulty reading of Isaiah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies: my fonts did not display. Please excuse my double post, but here it is again with the words in English:</p>
<p>With the greatest respect, I believe that you are mistaken. Esther 2:3 refers to virgins, but the fact that it also mentions the word <i>betulah</i> might indicate that <i>na&#8217;arah</i> by itself is insufficient to denote them. Even if <i>na&#8217;arah</i> did have that meaning, it still says nothing for <i>almah</i> which might be supposed to denote virgins in Songs 6:8, but might just as easily be denoting the second group of women described in Esther 2:14.</p>
<p>On the contrary, I think that the ambiguity resides in the Greek, <i>parthenos</i>. Like the English “maiden”, it has a semantic range that extends both to “virgin” and “young girl”. To suggest that Matthew might have erred seems a bit glib to me; there are enough stories of virgin births in the ancient world to dismiss the possibility that they derive from a faulty reading of Isaiah.</p>
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