Comments on: Israelite Backdrop to the Two Powers, Part 1 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/ Understanding the ancient Israelite context for first century Judaism's binitarian monotheism and the Christian Godhead Mon, 21 May 2012 12:46:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-26 MSH Fri, 30 May 2008 04:47:23 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-26 Thanks for Psa 106.32 as well! Thanks for Psa 106.32 as well!

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-25 MSH Fri, 30 May 2008 03:51:31 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-25 James - Isa 48.16 is very interesting. I had not taken note of it before, since I haven't gone full bore after the triunity in the OT (just binitarianism to this point -- I've been "prepping" for the other, and this passage will certainly need consideration). I have no trouble with arguing in favor of hypostasis in general. The term is lambasted all the time in scholarship as being nebulous or difficult to define. That difficulty (I think) seems to stem from the desire to come up with a definition all or most scholars will approve. I don't think that concern is primary. I ask questions like whether the Israelites (alone?) were too dumb or unsophisticated to view a god (their God) as being more than one "person" and yet the persons are the same in nature. If we see other peoples (Egyptians, Canaanites, Assyrians) doing that, I think we need to give Israelites some credit here. I'd rather describe the situation and the beliefs than worry about whether one word captures what's going on or not. Could Israel grasp that a second being "was but wasn't" Yahweh in the same way Christians would conceive of Jesus - he was God yet wasn't the Father? James - Isa 48.16 is very interesting. I had not taken note of it before, since I haven’t gone full bore after the triunity in the OT (just binitarianism to this point — I’ve been “prepping” for the other, and this passage will certainly need consideration).

I have no trouble with arguing in favor of hypostasis in general. The term is lambasted all the time in scholarship as being nebulous or difficult to define. That difficulty (I think) seems to stem from the desire to come up with a definition all or most scholars will approve. I don’t think that concern is primary. I ask questions like whether the Israelites (alone?) were too dumb or unsophisticated to view a god (their God) as being more than one “person” and yet the persons are the same in nature. If we see other peoples (Egyptians, Canaanites, Assyrians) doing that, I think we need to give Israelites some credit here. I’d rather describe the situation and the beliefs than worry about whether one word captures what’s going on or not. Could Israel grasp that a second being “was but wasn’t” Yahweh in the same way Christians would conceive of Jesus - he was God yet wasn’t the Father?

]]> By: James Lillis http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-23 James Lillis Sat, 24 May 2008 00:14:17 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-23 Bingo! Psa. 78:40 How often they rebelled against him in the desert and grieved him in the wasteland! The antecedent of 'him' being God Most High (El Elyon). (Also, Psa. 106:32 may be helpful) Bingo!

Psa. 78:40 How often they rebelled against him in the desert and grieved him in the wasteland!

The antecedent of ‘him’ being God Most High (El Elyon).

(Also, Psa. 106:32 may be helpful)

]]> By: James Lillis http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-22 James Lillis Fri, 23 May 2008 04:26:07 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-22 Deal. Game on... My initial thought is: Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. MSH: So you would say the word spirit in Is 48:16 is <i>partitive</i> rather than <i>hypostatic</i>? Deal. Game on…

My initial thought is:

Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

MSH: So you would say the word spirit in Is 48:16 is partitive rather than hypostatic?

]]> By: cwmyers007 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-19 cwmyers007 Thu, 22 May 2008 00:56:25 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-19 James, Excellent find of Isaiah 63:7! I will help you find that cross-reference. If we cannot find it, we will have to beg Dr. Heiser for it!...LOL Grace and Peace to you, Chris James,

Excellent find of Isaiah 63:7! I will help you find that cross-reference. If we cannot find it, we will have to beg Dr. Heiser for it!…LOL

Grace and Peace to you,

Chris

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-18 MSH Wed, 21 May 2008 19:55:41 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-18 James: The first one doesn't work - all it says is that God has a Spirit; it doesn't suggest that the Spirit IS Yahweh and yet distinct. The second is workable IF you find the right cross-reference - I'll let you look for that...before I give it to you. James: The first one doesn’t work - all it says is that God has a Spirit; it doesn’t suggest that the Spirit IS Yahweh and yet distinct.

The second is workable IF you find the right cross-reference - I’ll let you look for that…before I give it to you.

]]> By: James Lillis http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-17 James Lillis Wed, 21 May 2008 12:12:35 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-17 How about this for an example of OT trinitarianism: Is. 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. ... 16 Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.” And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. or Is. 63:7 I will tell of the kindnesses of the LORD ... 9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 10 Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. How about this for an example of OT trinitarianism:

Is. 48:12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. … 16 Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.” And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit.

or

Is. 63:7 I will tell of the kindnesses of the LORD … 9 In all their distress he too was distressed, and the angel of his presence saved them. In his love and mercy he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. 10 Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit.

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-15 MSH Wed, 21 May 2008 06:44:59 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-15 Chris: It is pretty easy to establish binitarianism in the Hebrew Bible (I say easy, ten years down the road and with the benefit of a dissertation!). Trinitarianism in the OT is much more difficult, and is something I'm just embarking on. Basically, one needs to establish what the two powers "do" and what motifs are attached to them, so to speak, and then go trolling in the text for descriptions of the Spirit and his activities. Regarding evangelism, I agree. During my dissertation time I was invited to teach a non-credit summer course to senior citizens on "angels in the Bible." I decided to go into the two powers thing on the first day. I got about half way through and a woman raised her hand and said "my rabbi never taught us this." Turned out everyone in room (about 30 people or so) was Jewish! It was great fun, and they were fascinated. One told me after the course that it really helped her understand how Jews in ancient times could become Christians - it made sense to her. Chris: It is pretty easy to establish binitarianism in the Hebrew Bible (I say easy, ten years down the road and with the benefit of a dissertation!). Trinitarianism in the OT is much more difficult, and is something I’m just embarking on. Basically, one needs to establish what the two powers “do” and what motifs are attached to them, so to speak, and then go trolling in the text for descriptions of the Spirit and his activities.

Regarding evangelism, I agree. During my dissertation time I was invited to teach a non-credit summer course to senior citizens on “angels in the Bible.” I decided to go into the two powers thing on the first day. I got about half way through and a woman raised her hand and said “my rabbi never taught us this.” Turned out everyone in room (about 30 people or so) was Jewish! It was great fun, and they were fascinated. One told me after the course that it really helped her understand how Jews in ancient times could become Christians - it made sense to her.

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-14 MSH Wed, 21 May 2008 06:40:10 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-14 James: Yes - there is different versification in the Hebrew Bible than in the English (in these places, among many others). James: Yes - there is different versification in the Hebrew Bible than in the English (in these places, among many others).

]]> By: cwmyers007 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/israelite-backdrop-to-the-two-powers-part-1/#comment-12 cwmyers007 Sun, 18 May 2008 18:43:28 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=10#comment-12 Dr. Heiser, I feel that this discussion is long needed. Perhaps the resurrection of this ancient Jewish belief can be used in evangelism to the Jews. You mentioned that their is a context for a binitarian Jewish belief in their scriptures, but how about trinitarian? Is the Spirit veiled to much in the Hebrew Bible? Do you think the Christian Godhead can only be deduced from the New Testament scriptures? Grace be with you, Chris Dr. Heiser,

I feel that this discussion is long needed. Perhaps the resurrection of this ancient Jewish belief can be used in evangelism to the Jews. You mentioned that their is a context for a binitarian Jewish belief in their scriptures, but how about trinitarian? Is the Spirit veiled to much in the Hebrew Bible? Do you think the Christian Godhead can only be deduced from the New Testament scriptures?

Grace be with you,
Chris

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