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	<title>Comments on: Two Powers in Heaven: An Introduction</title>
	<atom:link href="http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/</link>
	<description>Understanding the ancient Israelite context for first century Judaism's binitarian monotheism and the Christian Godhead</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 12:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: When the evidence does not fit the answer, just make stuff up (Trying to figure out what Paul taught) &#171; Vridar</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-84</link>
		<dc:creator>When the evidence does not fit the answer, just make stuff up (Trying to figure out what Paul taught) &#171; Vridar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-84</guid>
		<description>[...] the &#8220;two powers in heaven&#8221; &#8220;heresy&#8221; with Metatron being found in the place of God in heaven according to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the &#8220;two powers in heaven&#8221; &#8220;heresy&#8221; with Metatron being found in the place of God in heaven according to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 05:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-37</guid>
		<description>benign_man:  Thanks!  I will look you up if I'm ever in Athens. It would be fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>benign_man:  Thanks!  I will look you up if I&#8217;m ever in Athens. It would be fun.</p>
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		<title>By: benign_man</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>benign_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Mr. Heiser thank you very much for the time you took .I really appreciate it as well as your comments. I too agree  with you that without solid evidence nothing can be accepted.I just found it quite intriguing ,something to bear in mind.

It would be a great honour to have you in my class as it would be to one day meet you in person and cherish your company. You are a man of serious science and integrity but also very kind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Heiser thank you very much for the time you took .I really appreciate it as well as your comments. I too agree  with you that without solid evidence nothing can be accepted.I just found it quite intriguing ,something to bear in mind.</p>
<p>It would be a great honour to have you in my class as it would be to one day meet you in person and cherish your company. You are a man of serious science and integrity but also very kind.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-32</guid>
		<description>benign man:  I just looked at the website (you caught me with some time!). VERY interesting, though I have basically the same response as I've given to Richard (Hoagland): I can't accept artificiality for this or any of the other "structures" on Mars until there is some sort of expedition there and there is real hard evidence.  Thanks for the site!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>benign man:  I just looked at the website (you caught me with some time!). VERY interesting, though I have basically the same response as I&#8217;ve given to Richard (Hoagland): I can&#8217;t accept artificiality for this or any of the other &#8220;structures&#8221; on Mars until there is some sort of expedition there and there is real hard evidence.  Thanks for the site!</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-31</guid>
		<description>benign man:  Sorry to hear of your atheism - has me wondering what led to it.  I appreciate your comments and use of The Facade.  Maybe if I'm ever in Athens I can stop in and listen to your class!  I will have a look at the website you mentioned here as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>benign man:  Sorry to hear of your atheism - has me wondering what led to it.  I appreciate your comments and use of The Facade.  Maybe if I&#8217;m ever in Athens I can stop in and listen to your class!  I will have a look at the website you mentioned here as well.</p>
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		<title>By: benign_man</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>benign_man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 19:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-30</guid>
		<description>Mr Heiser hello from Athens,Greece. I have read your book ''The Facade'' and watched some of your lectures.I like and appreciate your work,the new ideas you have brought into theology and you are also a very likeable person. Although I do not believe in God anymore I think highly of your work and I love to read it for educational purposes.I recommend ''The facade'' to my students (I teach English) and their responce is enthusiastic despite their personal beliefs.Not only is your novel captivating but it is also a wealth of scientific and cultural information and an urge for young students to do research.I will follow your future work on the site and as an author closely. Now my question is this. I have found this humble unassuming site(http://members.cox.net/marscydonia/index.shtml)  that gives a certain depiction of the face on Mars quite different from that widely held to be correct. Owing to the strong possibility that Helel was serpentine and luminous in appearance I'd like to ask you to have a look and tell me what you think.Thanks for the opportunity to contact you.All the best wishes for you and your family and please carry on with your excellent work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Heiser hello from Athens,Greece. I have read your book &#8221;The Facade&#8221; and watched some of your lectures.I like and appreciate your work,the new ideas you have brought into theology and you are also a very likeable person. Although I do not believe in God anymore I think highly of your work and I love to read it for educational purposes.I recommend &#8221;The facade&#8221; to my students (I teach English) and their responce is enthusiastic despite their personal beliefs.Not only is your novel captivating but it is also a wealth of scientific and cultural information and an urge for young students to do research.I will follow your future work on the site and as an author closely. Now my question is this. I have found this humble unassuming site(http://members.cox.net/marscydonia/index.shtml)  that gives a certain depiction of the face on Mars quite different from that widely held to be correct. Owing to the strong possibility that Helel was serpentine and luminous in appearance I&#8217;d like to ask you to have a look and tell me what you think.Thanks for the opportunity to contact you.All the best wishes for you and your family and please carry on with your excellent work.</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 06:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Catherine: On your first question: Yes, Baal was a pagan deity, and seen as such (at least by orthodox Yahwists). But the Bible often (well, maybe a couple dozen places) takes Baal imagery, titles, or passages from the Baal Cycle of Ugarit, and applies them to Yahweh.  The tactic in doing so is polemic.  Baal was the storm god, for example, who rode the clouds.  By calling Yahweh the one who rides the clouds, or by taking a passage from the Baal Cycle and "inserting" Yahweh (thus displacing Baal in those lines), the writer was saying, "no you dimwits, Yahweh is the one who brings rain / rides the clouds." Doing this kind of thing was "diss-ing" the other deity.  Yahweh also has titles and names of El (from Ugarit) applied to him in the Hebrew Bible.  They were sort of "merged" into Him in the Israelites' mind--there could be only one high sovereign who was superior to other gods.  

The people of Ugarit believed El (their name - and the same as in the Hebrew Bible) was the sovereign of the pantheon.  However, it is Baal who, as El's co-regent, was called "most high" and "king of the gods" - and yet Baal has lesser authority.  Essentially, Baal was El's vizier.  I don't want to get ahead of myself by putting my material into comments, but I'm going to argue (this was part of my dissertation) that Israel had its own co-regent council structure where Yahweh was the sovereign (and both El and Baal imagery and titles were applied to him, as noted above).  BUT (and here's the cool part), there is a SECOND  Yahweh figure in the Hebrew Scriptures -- what I call the "visible Yahweh" -- who was at times present with Yahweh -- the invisible Yahweh (the "Father").  Israel's version of a co-regent council was to have Yahweh in BOTH slots -- the El slot and the Baal slot. The El slot = the invisible Yahweh; the Baal slot = the visible Yahweh.  Thus there was a binitarian godhead.  The second Yahweh "was but wasn't" Yahweh -- he at times appears alone, and at times with the invisible Yahweh.  They are the same, yet distinct.  Sound familiar?

Second question: The visible Yahweh figure I talked about above can be linked (rather easily) to the figure of the Messiah.  You'll have to wait for more on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catherine: On your first question: Yes, Baal was a pagan deity, and seen as such (at least by orthodox Yahwists). But the Bible often (well, maybe a couple dozen places) takes Baal imagery, titles, or passages from the Baal Cycle of Ugarit, and applies them to Yahweh.  The tactic in doing so is polemic.  Baal was the storm god, for example, who rode the clouds.  By calling Yahweh the one who rides the clouds, or by taking a passage from the Baal Cycle and &#8220;inserting&#8221; Yahweh (thus displacing Baal in those lines), the writer was saying, &#8220;no you dimwits, Yahweh is the one who brings rain / rides the clouds.&#8221; Doing this kind of thing was &#8220;diss-ing&#8221; the other deity.  Yahweh also has titles and names of El (from Ugarit) applied to him in the Hebrew Bible.  They were sort of &#8220;merged&#8221; into Him in the Israelites&#8217; mind&#8211;there could be only one high sovereign who was superior to other gods.  </p>
<p>The people of Ugarit believed El (their name - and the same as in the Hebrew Bible) was the sovereign of the pantheon.  However, it is Baal who, as El&#8217;s co-regent, was called &#8220;most high&#8221; and &#8220;king of the gods&#8221; - and yet Baal has lesser authority.  Essentially, Baal was El&#8217;s vizier.  I don&#8217;t want to get ahead of myself by putting my material into comments, but I&#8217;m going to argue (this was part of my dissertation) that Israel had its own co-regent council structure where Yahweh was the sovereign (and both El and Baal imagery and titles were applied to him, as noted above).  BUT (and here&#8217;s the cool part), there is a SECOND  Yahweh figure in the Hebrew Scriptures &#8212; what I call the &#8220;visible Yahweh&#8221; &#8212; who was at times present with Yahweh &#8212; the invisible Yahweh (the &#8220;Father&#8221;).  Israel&#8217;s version of a co-regent council was to have Yahweh in BOTH slots &#8212; the El slot and the Baal slot. The El slot = the invisible Yahweh; the Baal slot = the visible Yahweh.  Thus there was a binitarian godhead.  The second Yahweh &#8220;was but wasn&#8217;t&#8221; Yahweh &#8212; he at times appears alone, and at times with the invisible Yahweh.  They are the same, yet distinct.  Sound familiar?</p>
<p>Second question: The visible Yahweh figure I talked about above can be linked (rather easily) to the figure of the Messiah.  You&#8217;ll have to wait for more on that.</p>
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		<title>By: CatherineB</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>CatherineB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 21:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-13</guid>
		<description>"The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. The two powers teaching was a surviving element in Common Era Judaism of the old pre-exilic divine council"

Two questions:  I thought the Jews always regarded Baal as a pagan deity, are you saying they incorporated him into their own theology or are you saying the Ugarites  (?) had a belief in an "El" and an appointed god "Baal"?

Who did the rabbis think the coming Messiah was, if he wasn't a ruling power in heaven?  More plainly stated, who or what was the Messiah supposed to be if not a heavenly being?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. The two powers teaching was a surviving element in Common Era Judaism of the old pre-exilic divine council&#8221;</p>
<p>Two questions:  I thought the Jews always regarded Baal as a pagan deity, are you saying they incorporated him into their own theology or are you saying the Ugarites  (?) had a belief in an &#8220;El&#8221; and an appointed god &#8220;Baal&#8221;?</p>
<p>Who did the rabbis think the coming Messiah was, if he wasn&#8217;t a ruling power in heaven?  More plainly stated, who or what was the Messiah supposed to be if not a heavenly being?</p>
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		<title>By: MSH</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>MSH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 07:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-5</guid>
		<description>thanks to both of you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks to both of you!</p>
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		<title>By: CatherineB</title>
		<link>http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2008/05/two-powers-in-heaven-an-introduction/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>CatherineB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 17:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=6#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Looking forward to where you are going with all this...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking forward to where you are going with all this&#8230;</p>
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