Comments on: The Name in Ante-Nicene Christology http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/ Understanding the ancient Israelite context for first century Judaism's binitarian monotheism and the Christian Godhead Mon, 21 May 2012 13:18:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: paullink http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/#comment-71 paullink Wed, 29 Apr 2009 21:40:32 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=71#comment-71 Mike: Its been ordered. Thanks paullink Mike: Its been ordered. Thanks

paullink

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/#comment-70 MSH Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:23:59 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=71#comment-70 @paullink: When you (or I) say "no support" in the Hebrew Bible, it reflects our modern methods of exegesis. Ancient interpreters (including within the NT) often did exegesis by analogy, or by allegory, or by symbolism. They were operating within the accepted parameters of their own (and the wider culture's) exegetical methods. A good resource on ancient interpretation is "A History of Biblical Interpretation: The Ancient Period". Check it out on Amazon. Very valuable. @paullink: When you (or I) say “no support” in the Hebrew Bible, it reflects our modern methods of exegesis. Ancient interpreters (including within the NT) often did exegesis by analogy, or by allegory, or by symbolism. They were operating within the accepted parameters of their own (and the wider culture’s) exegetical methods. A good resource on ancient interpretation is “A History of Biblical Interpretation: The Ancient Period”. Check it out on Amazon. Very valuable.

]]> By: paullink http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/#comment-69 paullink Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:59:40 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=71#comment-69 Mike: thank you for your insight. One part still puzzles me. On page 149, last paragraph and its footnote (110) ties Proverbs 8:22 and Genesis 1:1 (and others) together as the origin of the apparent Christological title ("Source of all Creation"). While I am not sure if Charles Gieschen is asserting the connection or he is stating that Clement of Rome is asserting the connection, it does seems clear that (at least some) early Christians i.e. Paul, John, some early church fathers, viewed "the Beginning" as a divine name (as opposed by no support in the Hebrew Bible i.e. from #2 above). Hence my confusion, should I read Genesis 1:1 as only the chronological start of matter (or at least the reforming of the Earth) or should I read that a co-creator is mentioned in the verse (clause) as well? How would you read it? paullink Mike: thank you for your insight.

One part still puzzles me. On page 149, last paragraph and its footnote (110) ties Proverbs 8:22 and Genesis 1:1 (and others) together as the origin of the apparent Christological title (”Source of all Creation”). While I am not sure if Charles Gieschen is asserting the connection or he is stating that Clement of Rome is asserting the connection, it does seems clear that (at least some) early Christians i.e. Paul, John, some early church fathers, viewed “the Beginning” as a divine name (as opposed by no support in the Hebrew Bible i.e. from #2 above).

Hence my confusion, should I read Genesis 1:1 as only the chronological start of matter (or at least the reforming of the Earth) or should I read that a co-creator is mentioned in the verse (clause) as well? How would you read it?

paullink

]]> By: MSH http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/#comment-68 MSH Thu, 23 Apr 2009 04:57:26 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=71#comment-68 @paullink: I've never seen anything in terms of the Hebrew Bible supporting "beginning" as a divine name. I think the idea of a co-creator is in the OT (and of course there was Jewish speculation about that - via Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22ff., which was thought by 2nd temple Jews to be the Torah, which was the Word...and the Word was Yahweh personified in certain OT texts...and you can see where this is going. @paullink: I’ve never seen anything in terms of the Hebrew Bible supporting “beginning” as a divine name. I think the idea of a co-creator is in the OT (and of course there was Jewish speculation about that - via Wisdom of Proverbs 8:22ff., which was thought by 2nd temple Jews to be the Torah, which was the Word…and the Word was Yahweh personified in certain OT texts…and you can see where this is going.

]]> By: paullink http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/2009/04/the-name-in-ante-nicene-christology/#comment-67 paullink Wed, 22 Apr 2009 16:47:49 +0000 http://michaelsheiser.com/TwoPowersInHeaven/?p=71#comment-67 Mike, as I am reading through this article on the Divine Name in ante-Nicene Christology by Charles A. Gieschen, one of the variety of ways the NT writers identified Jesus as YHWH that surprised me was "the Beginning" or the "Beginning of God's Creation" ( Page listing 128 [middle] and 132 [end of first paragraph]). This is easy to see in Col 1:18; Rv 3:14; and Rv 21:6 and easy to read into in some others. If the "Beginning" is a Divine Name in the NT would it be a Divine Name in the OT i.e. would have the writers of the various OT books have viewed it this way? For example, Gen 1:1 reads "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" but could it be viewed and as "In (or through) the 2nd deity person (i.e. Jesus), YHWH (i.e. Father) created the heavens and the earth"? This would (seem to) support the idea that the first clause of the Hebrew text is a title to the chapter and is without a temporal reference. There seems to be a dozen or so uses of the word "the beginning" (strongs #7225,7218,7223) that does not require the idea that something started but that the 2nd deity person is actively involve with YHWH people in the OT. Is this possible or simple cannot be supported by the texts? Paullink Mike, as I am reading through this article on the Divine Name in ante-Nicene Christology by Charles A. Gieschen, one of the variety of ways the NT writers identified Jesus as YHWH that surprised me was “the Beginning” or the “Beginning of God’s Creation” ( Page listing 128 [middle] and 132 [end of first paragraph]). This is easy to see in Col 1:18; Rv 3:14; and Rv 21:6 and easy to read into in some others.

If the “Beginning” is a Divine Name in the NT would it be a Divine Name in the OT i.e. would have the writers of the various OT books have viewed it this way?

For example, Gen 1:1 reads “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” but could it be viewed and as “In (or through) the 2nd deity person (i.e. Jesus), YHWH (i.e. Father) created the heavens and the earth”? This would (seem to) support the idea that the first clause of the Hebrew text is a title to the chapter and is without a temporal reference.

There seems to be a dozen or so uses of the word “the beginning” (strongs #7225,7218,7223) that does not require the idea that something started but that the 2nd deity person is actively involve with YHWH people in the OT.

Is this possible or simple cannot be supported by the texts?

Paullink

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